Curse

Lord Iowerth · Nov 12, 2005, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Ooh, erm, and I nearly forgot:

Thanks, ANet, for making an update that a whole bunch of people dislike ... and making it on my birthday.

I'm already being blamed for it

(and don't flame me, this is just toungue-in-cheek)

kareel · Nov 12, 2005, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Yo... check my post in the official poll thread.

It's really informative.

~ KDS

Hanuman li Tosh · Nov 12, 2005, 01:50 AM // 01:50

bottom line is anet made a good move towards making this a pro gaming endeavor and i like that. theres no f'n way any creature with animal intelligence or higher would stand in AoE if they didnt have too. to prove my point i made a video of me throwing molotov RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOtail at a group of mallrats... j/k. in all reality the game is supposed to be fun and i agree 100%. if this patch took the fun out of GW for you, you owe it to yourself to evaluate why you find it so fun to fight creatures that commit suicide. (i can think of another GW that needs to ask this question but its not guild wars related)

kitten · Nov 12, 2005, 01:52 AM // 01:52

*sigh*

Dom Mesmer here... I <3 my Dom mesmer, at least, I did.

I read about 40 pages of this thread and went to switch my skills around and try things out. I agree with what someone said earlier, it's a lot harder, and not at all in a fun way. This is a game, and it's supposed to be fun. I worked hard at getting good armor, good weapons, unlocking elites, and learning how to use my skills effectively so that people would want me in PUGs. My guildmates sometimes farm and take my mesmer along because I could do mass damage and end things a lot faster.

This isn't fun for me anymore. There ARE other games (I run a clan and servers for an FPS) that i've been neglecting because i was loving GW so much. Looks like they get my attention again.

The grind is... having to work so hard on my other characters to get them to where my mesmer was. Now I'm afraid I'll find something that works, and then one day log in to see that it won't. I'm too frustrated right now of trying to use my N/E (was saving up for Fissure Armor for her...), and all I have left is my W/Mo and Mo/W (no - i didn't create them for farming, my guild is always short a tank or healer on missions) that I don't really enjoy playing as much.

I like the IDEA of better AI, but this just wasn't done well. I'l check in again on updates and happenings in a few weeks.

Oh, and good job on keeping prices in check. :/ Runes, dyes, ectos and shards just skyrocketed overnight.

pcgnus · Nov 12, 2005, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Yo anyone tried to buy a water, earthmor air rune? you cant Thanks ANET yesterday you could not give these away and now the rune traders are out. YOU CALL THAT SUPPLY AND DEMAND???

Hanuman li Tosh · Nov 12, 2005, 01:58 AM // 01:58

lol ever played doom in GOD mode? is it fun? does playing the map without god mode make it less fun? should id software just made god mode standard?

Mister Overhill · Nov 12, 2005, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Sheesh. This has caused quite an uproar. Havent played in a couple of days, so I'll have to see what all the fuss is about.

I will say this much, that if A-net has made the game too difficult for the casual player, then I and my team are out. I have been gaming seriously for years, but my team-mates are all my kids, grandkids, and a future son-in-law. They are all casual gamers.

If, in fact, A-net has screwed it up in that sense, that will mean seven expansion packs right there that won't be bought.

In all fairness, will have to give it a good tryout before making a decision.

Dametrus · Nov 12, 2005, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Okay...from what I have heard....(I haven't actually tested), this does not only affect spells like Meteor shower and firestorm. I haven't managed to read anything either (at work). But, this also affects Smiting (Balth aura and symbol of wrath). If that is the case, then just get rid of the spells. No since in having them if the moment you cast it you get one hit on everything around you and then you spend the rest of the 20 second counter chasing them. (I hope that is not the case)

aron searle · Nov 12, 2005, 02:28 AM // 02:28

no dont get rid of them because the FARMERS can still use them

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon
Lets see, snares...

Ele: about 33% of the water line, plus a couple in earth
Mes: Crippling Anguish, Ethereal Burden, Imagined Burden
Monk: none
Necro: none
Ran: maiming strike, pin down, barbed trap, spike trap, muddy terrain
War: axe rake, hamstring

Looks to me like only 1 in 25 possible class combos (I'm counting Mon/Nec = Nec/Mon, etc) has atleast 1 form of snare in the primary or secondary class and none of the snares makes use of a classes primary attribute.

Thanks for proving my point, that now not all classes have the option of using orion and any other AOE using henchmen.....

Oh and axe rake and hamstring can be used against a WHOPPING 1-2 targets, in which case you wont really be in much danger :/

Like i said some can snare, not all.

entropy · Nov 12, 2005, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanuman li Tosh

bottom line is anet made a good move towards making this a pro gaming endeavor and i like that. theres no f'n way any creature with animal intelligence or higher would stand in AoE if they didnt have too. to prove my point i made a video of me throwing molotov RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOtail at a group of mallrats... j/k. in all reality the game is supposed to be fun and i agree 100%. if this patch took the fun out of GW for you, you owe it to yourself to evaluate why you find it so fun to fight creatures that commit suicide. (i can think of another GW that needs to ask this question but its not guild wars related)

OMFG runn balthazars aura is hitting for 1!!!!!! OMG ITS THE END OF THE RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING WORLD AINT IT. Well it didn't take all the fun out it made it a bigger pain in the ass the before. How bout that. I do pvp not pve and when I want to do missions I don't want total and utter chaos. Does that sound reasonable? creatures that commit suicide? Seriously get thinking. Sure maybe them not standing in the aoe is the smart thing but the patch was shit and there needs to be no more explaining as already done in my first sentence. You are INVULNERABLE to melee based opponents for the duration of that spell. Nerfed almost all aoe skills. Nerfed the fire skill line. Nerfed zealots fire. Nerfed farming. nerfed ele's in general. PbAoe spells make them run before you even cast hmm. thats a horrible update and now I need to revise myself and commit suicide. Yeah thats the wya to go.

Lelani · Nov 12, 2005, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dametrus

Okay...from what I have heard....(I haven't actually tested), this does not only affect spells like Meteor shower and firestorm. I haven't managed to read anything either (at work). But, this also affects Smiting (Balth aura and symbol of wrath). If that is the case, then just get rid of the spells. No since in having them if the moment you cast it you get one hit on everything around you and then you spend the rest of the 20 second counter chasing them. (I hope that is not the case)

Yep, it also applies to AoE smites too, although I believe on-trigger spells like Zealot's Fire escape the nerf bat. Single shot AoE's like Fireball also seem to cause the same effect. In general most AoE's are now energy-intensive mob repellants.

Roza · Nov 12, 2005, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Will prices rize or fall? Many disagreed with me when I said that they would drop a bit. Someone posted this:

Quote:
To all of you thinking prices will go down, take an economics class:

1. Supply is now heavily constricted
2. Demand is the same
3. Prices will skyrocket
p-|d---------v-------x-
--|-d------v--------x---
r-|---d---v--------x----
--|----dv-------x-------
i-|----v---d--x---------
--|--------x--d---------
c-|------x--------d-----
--|--x----------------d-
e-|__________________
Demand

d = demand curve
x = original supply curve
v = new supply curve

As you can see, the aggregate shift in the supply curve will cause an exponential increase in prices of items. Another problem arises with the new cutoff in the amount of gold, this weakens the average player's purchasing power while inceasing the purchasing power of the rich considerably
End of quote.

This may seem very learned, with the little graph (nicely done btw

) but this is just plain wrong reasoning. The number of items in the game will be less. This would cause prices to rise if this was the only thing that would change.

But demand won't stay the same. Demand is not how many people want something, but how much they want and CAN afford to spend on something. If people have less gold in the game, prices will fall (basic economic rule). Now, people that sell stuff to each other do not affect the overal amount of gold going around in the player economy (or it does only if people tend to hoard gold and sit on it more).

Where does the gold come from? From gold drops and from selling stuff to merchants. Where does it dissappear to? Buying stuff (like keys, salvage kits, runes) from merchants, and paying for stuff like armour, entrance to the UW, and skills). If people cannot farm as well as before, they will get less gold from drops and selling stuff to the merchants. So there is less gold enetering the player economy.

Anet made buying skills a lot more expensive. Effect? Gold down. They introduced keys, which are not cheap. In return you get fairly good items. The effect? Gold down, number of items up. It seems pretty obvious to me that Anet wanted the amount of gold in players accounts not to get to get out of hand. This must have been one of the reasons why they introduced gold sinks in the first place. I can only speculate as to the reasons behind all this.

But my point is: supply down, demand down even more: deflation (lower prices). Prices will not rise. If they will, it will because of virgoods. People farming continuesly and not spending and selling most of their items to the merchants, selling their gold to other players? Some gain to the supply side of things, but a much higher boost to the amount of gold floating around in the player economy.

In fact, prices have not really risen by all that much over the last couple of months, except maybe prices for particular runes that people use for farming (the price of sup fire - now 10K - may drop now AOE is less effective for normal farming). Dye prices have dropped. Upgrade prices have stayed more or less the same, except for 'perfect' or 'near perfect' upgrades (which may have more to do with more people learning more about how to optimize their builds than anything).

Of course, a drop in both supply and demand will make people poorer in terms of the stuff they can purchase, which I think is a shame. But the argument that the update will cause price to go up dramatically is simply not valid.

Feel free to flame me.

Aeon_Xin · Nov 12, 2005, 02:56 AM // 02:56

All from the Poll version of this topic.
I felt it needed put here, considering some of of what I've read.

"I kinda figured the enemy was highly bestial and willing to take as much damage as necessary if it can kill you or die trying."

People still said things are retarted if they don't run when they get an ouchie.

"They're called monsters for a reason. Maybe they're on 'roid rage and WANT YOU DEAD. There are real animals in the world that will not relent their grip if they get a hold of your foot or something, even in death. Savage creatures that will put up with a good bit of torment and grief just to know you're still bleeding. Insanity, different pain receptors, drugs, not pcp, but the likes of peyote and such, there are all sorts of reasons a foe wouldn't let up on a person that's made them angry."

I addition to all that(edit)
You're fighting a mortal enemy that WILL kill you if it gets the chance. Firey little lumps of coal fall on your head.....
"I addition to this, how many of you would stay and fight, hoping to get that one throat slash in that would kill your enemy, before he moves on from your corpse, and kills the rest of your family, your wife and children."

These things you're killing want to kill you back.

Anyone defending the change as to how rational creatures fight, really has to watch more discovery channel. Any creature, unless it's being playful or vying for domination, that is a born killer, will tend to fight to the death, or not get into a fight in the first place, will run away with just a nip and one yowl.

Sometimes an animal, when cornered, will give up on running, and go completely feral, giving up on any running away option, and just do as much damage as possible.

Is there still argument as to why something with fire rained down on it's head might stay and fight? Especially creatures called CHarr, who were responsible for the Searing? Creatures that look like big ass man/lion combinations, who are at war with us and want to slay us?

twicky_kid · Nov 12, 2005, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

All from the Poll version of this topic.
I felt it needed put here, considering some of of what I've read.

"I kinda figured the enemy was highly bestial and willing to take as much damage as necessary if it can kill you or die trying."

People still said things are retarted if they don't run when they get an ouchie.

"They're called monsters for a reason. Maybe they're on 'roid rage and WANT YOU DEAD. There are real animals in the world that will not relent their grip if they get a hold of your foot or something, even in death. Savage creatures that will put up with a good bit of torment and grief just to know you're still bleeding. Insanity, different pain receptors, drugs, not pcp, but the likes of peyote and such, there are all sorts of reasons a foe wouldn't let up on a person that's made them angry."

I addition to all that(edit)
You're fighting a mortal enemy that WILL kill you if it gets the chance. Firey little lumps of coal fall on your head.....
"I addition to this, how many of you would stay and fight, hoping to get that one throat slash in that would kill your enemy, before he moves on from your corpse, and kills the rest of your family, your wife and children."

These things you're killing want to kill you back.

Anyone defending the change as to how rational creatures fight, really has to watch more discovery channel. Any creature, unless it's being playful or vying for domination, that is a born killer, will tend to fight to the death, or not get into a fight in the first place, will run away with just a nip and one yowl.

Sometimes an animal, when cornered, will give up on running, and go completely feral, giving up on any running away option, and just do as much damage as possible.

Is there still argument as to why something with fire rained down on it's head might stay and fight? Especially creatures called CHarr, who were responsible for the Searing? Creatures that look like big ass man/lion combinations, who are at war with us and want to slay us?

they might want us dead but it doesn't mean they are not smart enough to take 2 steps to the left or right to dodge your attacks. they are beating the humans after all so they must not be too dumb.

bottom line you are trying to rationalize a game. don't you will end up in a crazy house.

Aeon_Xin · Nov 12, 2005, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

they might want us dead but it doesn't mean they are not smart enough to take 2 steps to the left or right to dodge your attacks. they are beating the humans after all so they must not be too dumb.

bottom line you are trying to rationalize a game. don't you will end up in a crazy house.

You coulda quoted a smaller part of mine, lotta scrolling is all.

Anyways, My point is that there are two sides. It's not as simple, as if you just stand there and fight, that's dumb.

The backstory as a whole isn't really relevant, but that some of it is a war, and some creatures want to just eat us, is relevant.

Were the ancient samurai "dumb" because they wouldn't turn around and run at the slightest sign they might lose?

I'm only attempting to explain to some of the masses, that drive has alot to do with what one person will go through to achieve a goal.

If anyone were smart and 100% self preservation, there would be no war, atleast, no voluntary members in war.

I'm giving a pleathora of circumstances that would cause someone to go through hell, to meet a goal. ANY counter so far has been, it's suicide/dumb and doesn't make sense.

The words feral, wild, inhuman, brutal, insane, cold-blooded, and bestial all apply to some or all adversaries for any player in the RPG part of the game.
Most of those definitions are pretty blunt, and some even state, with no thought to consequences and lacking intelligence or reason.

Seissor · Nov 12, 2005, 03:42 AM // 03:42

I got no problem with ANET nerfing the big time UW farmers, but nerfing ele's makes them relatively useless. so u can scare the enemy off for a short while....that for the cost of exhaustion and all your energy aint worth it.

Guild Wars has turned into Nerf Wars. Ive clocked 700 hours in 6 months, but i wont be playing anymore.

Im not allowed to use exploits but the AI can, wow, imps that can keep pace with me as I sprint......huh?

Wow, an enemy who can find me OFF COMPUS, and attack me, even if i lose him, he knows where I am.

Enemies who can run and attack....i the human player cant

enemies who can cast and attack out of aggro bubble.....i cant

it was fun before it got a mega nerf, now ill go play another game which doesnt go nerf-tastic........this also rules out star wars galaxies.

Reve2uk · Nov 12, 2005, 03:46 AM // 03:46

i jsut don't see y they can't leave it alone

at this rate henchmen are going tobe better then normel players..... pity they take your drops

Foaming Mad Morak · Nov 12, 2005, 03:47 AM // 03:47

I believe that the mob AI update could have worked to improve the game but it was not very well thought out. Here is a list of things that I think needed to be incorporated into the patch to make it successful.

Mobs should not always instantly notice they are being hit by an AoE. Human players often initially miss damage messages especially if they are in the middle of beating on someone else .
Mobs should consider if they can clear the AoE before the spell has finished inflcting all of its damage, so they would not flee automatically for short duration of spike AoE affects.
Mobs should assess the spell damage. Humans will generally check how much damage they are taking and will not flee if the damage is reduced enough by armour and / or spells.
Mobs should assess the players health. Humans will probably not flee an AoE if the caster is almost dead and they can comfortably take the spell damage, allowing them to get the kill .
The flee rules should be applied to all damage and not just AoE damage. Humans will often run from any type of damage that they can possibly get away from (and often damage they cannot get away from) if their health is getting low. This is especially true for standard weapons damage as anyone who has ever tried warrior PvP without a sprint / snare skill will know .
The mobs should not automatically reselect their targets after fleeing. Human players (Especially non-warriors) will often flee from danger so they can keep attacking from safety, however they will resume attacking the same player more often than not rather than wasting time scanning through the available targets.
Hexes such as empathy and backfire should have affected mobs using the same sort of decisions as detailed above for AoE spells.
Blind, stances and attack block spells should have been included in the rules. Humans will sometimes (Not always) switch targets if they cannot hit their current target for some reason.
Given that monsters are boosted towards player levels of ability the number of grouped mobs and health / energy of mobs should have been reviewed to prevent the difficulty going through the roof.
The item drops from mobs should have also been reviewed given that it is now much more difficult to kill things.
Mobs should be given a reaction time to bring them down to human levels of ability, this is especially true on interupt skills / spells where currently mobs seemto have almost a psychic ability to interupt on any skill that takes 1+ seconds to execute.
As the timed AoE spells are fixed location the damage per hit, damage rate and or the size of the AoE should have been reviewed for each spell so that characters burning 25+ mana on a spell can expect to get more than one fairly weak hit before everything has fled.

I think that if all of the above (And probably a few other things I have not considered) had been factored into the patch it would have at least made PvE more challenging for all classes rather than having the unfortunate victimizing affect it seems to have had on fire eles, trapping rangers and smitting monks.

Aeon_Xin · Nov 12, 2005, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reve2uk

i jsut don't see y they can't leave it alone

at this rate henchmen are going tobe better then normel players..... pity they take your drops

If you've read my other posts, I obviously agree, except that henchemen could outplay any human. Silly spells at silly times. Rezzed in the middle of battle by the healer, to die in one hit from low hit points, repeat untill entire party is dead.

Orion casting his AOE, when the last creatures is like 3 HP from dying, instead of the beginning.

Any henchemen luring from my AOE, if anything, my henchies should stand by the fire AOEer(that's all i've experienced so far) to get as many monsters in it at once as possible.

"Mobs should be given a reaction time to bring them down to human levels of ability, this is especially true on interupt skills / spells where currently mobs seemto have almost a psychic ability to interupt on any skill that takes 1+ seconds to execute."

Was also a great point from above.
Anytime I'm in a group that has NPC enemy(With any interrupt skill), i'm hit with interupt, while the fighter hacks on them.
I can understand the mentality of going after the powerhouse, but well, 2 NPC fighters that are level 15 are no joke either.
I also don't like how mana is wasted if you get interupt, of you accidently walk, or are walking and accidently use a spell, poof, mana gone.

entropy · Nov 12, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seissor

I got no problem with ANET nerfing the big time UW farmers, but nerfing ele's makes them relatively useless. so u can scare the enemy off for a short while....that for the cost of exhaustion and all your energy aint worth it.

Guild Wars has turned into Nerf Wars. Ive clocked 700 hours in 6 months, but i wont be playing anymore.

Im not allowed to use exploits but the AI can, wow, imps that can keep pace with me as I sprint......huh?

Wow, an enemy who can find me OFF COMPUS, and attack me, even if i lose him, he knows where I am.

Enemies who can run and attack....i the human player cant

enemies who can cast and attack out of aggro bubble.....i cant

it was fun before it got a mega nerf, now ill go play another game which doesnt go nerf-tastic........this also rules out star wars galaxies.

quoted for truth